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Post by intherough on Feb 29, 2012 20:05:25 GMT 10
PPS: The best road skills/craft course I ever did was with Sixty Degrees Motorcycles (in Victoria www.sixtydegrees.com.au/browse/browse.asp?DeptID=107&CatID=1109), who taught me how to use the right lines, gears and speeds for every turn, and not have to use brakes at all on twisties. They took me on a course for several hours through several hills/mountains, and didn't apply the brakes at all during those runs, while being even safer. The principal was you learn't more about your bike, safe entrance/exit speeds, and proper control of your vehicle. At the same time, those speeds allowed suffcient time and distance to react accordingly if the need arose to straighten up the bike and applying emergency braking procedures. Sounds like a great course, Wolfy. Before getting back on a bike just over a year ago (and BTW I first came back on a scooter before I moved to the cruiser 3 months later) I reckon I learnt how to take fast corners on a Formula One game on my playstation. Go too hot and you overshoot, use your brakes too late while turning and you spin. I did learn the best entry, apex and exit to "straighten" a corner for a faster cornering speed. So translating this to bikes, gear down to take a bend with positive accelerator and FFS stay off the brakes! But as you state, never ride faster than you can see around the bend. But we're digressing from Anna's original post. I reckon everyone should take brush up lessons periodically to highlight any bad habits that have crept in.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 29, 2012 20:37:23 GMT 10
But we're digressing from Anna's original post. I reckon everyone should take brush up lessons periodically to highlight any bad habits that have crept in. You're not digressing at all, I'm soaking all this in And yeah I think training is the way to go for sure, as with anything I believe especially after doing something for a long time you pick up habits, be they bad or good, but dont realise what you are doing. Going to someone who can look at your actions with a fresh set of eyes and getting some postive feedback is a great thing to do. As for me getting training, yeah I've heard of the HART course and looked at it online, but to do it would just cost me more money than I have atm , I'm planning to at least do the trip to Bathurst to do the P's course which isnt required for me to get my P's here in Dubbo cause they dont have one, I want the training tho, I need the feedback! Hmm I'm tired and I do tend to make less sense when I'm tired but I'd also like to point out that I would do the training in a second if that option were available to me kinghavok, I dont think ya sound patronising and please dont think I'm replying in defense, I agree with you wholeheartedly. Around here there are obviously not enough bike riders for the courses to be run at a profit (well that's my guess as to why they dont have them here, I could be wrong, i was once b4 ) so when you go for your learners you do the written test, that's it, then they tell ya to just hop on a bike and orf ya go. I thnk that sucks, I'm lucky I have a husband who has ridden in the past, who has two sons who also ride, so even tho hubby was rusty he could still coach me a bit, but I think it's just damn wrong that they dont require some kinda training on the bike. I want the training and I bet there's a lot of people here who feel the same, it's just not that easy to get So I have turned to forums and talking to other people who ride, I know I have mates and people at work who are getting sick of me questions ... but they grin, and if they dont look out I'm gonna start telling them to show me wot they mean .. easy way to get a ride And that's gonna be the best I can get atm as far as training goes unfortunately. Tho at the risk of sounding like I'm sucking up ... I'm feeling pretty lucky in finding SRA, ya's all seem like a great bunch of people and I'm feeling pretty at ease here so far Hahaha and now I'm digressing ....
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Post by intherough on Feb 29, 2012 22:12:43 GMT 10
YouTube is your friend if there aren't any courses in the foreseeable future. At least you get to see how it's done. Then go find an empty carpark, set up a video camera or have someone film you, then you can review your own performance. I did this a couple of weeks ago practicing my slow ride maneuvers. What I picked up was I wasn't always keeping my head up and looking to where I wanted the bike to go. In those instances, yep, lost balance and foot goes down.
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Post by scrap on Feb 29, 2012 22:17:28 GMT 10
By Basim Wasim - good article on cruiser braking techniques:-
Braking is one of the most important things you’ll learn to do on a motorcycle; though newbies tend to get stuck on techniques like shifting and countersteering, the most effective way to avoid an accident is through proper use of the brakes. Here are a few common questions about how to stop on bike; for more on the topic, you can also check out this video. Should I use the front, rear brake… or both? Balance is crucial to a motorcycle’s dynamics, and that’s why most bikes have individual front and rear brake controls. Most experts agree that roughly 70% of braking effort should go to the front wheel (which uses the hand lever on the right grip), and 30% to the rear (which is operated by the right foot pedal.) Front brakes require more effort because weight transfer from slowing down will shift the bike’s balance from the rear wheel to the front, enabling the front tire to handle more load. When there’s less downforce on the rear tire, it becomes much easier to lockup and slide that wheel, resulting in a loss of control... the front, however, is less likely to slip because of the weight transferred to that end. Braking by bike type The 70/30 braking ratio can shift slightly based on the type of bike you’re riding; cruisers and choppers can handle more rear braking because they carry more weight over their rear wheel (due to the rearward position of the saddle), while sport bikes can tolerate higher front braking effort since their forks are more vertical and their wheelbases are shorter. Dirt bikes rarely see front brake usage due to the nature of loose terrain (see more on this in “Be aware of road conditions,” below.) In the hands of experienced riders, motard or supermoto bikes can even be slowed down by sliding out the rear tire. How hard can I brake? Learning the finer points of your bike’s braking performance is the key to keeping your bike in control, so it’s a good idea to explore those limits in a safe environment. Practice repeated stops in an abandoned parking lot or empty lot, and you’ll start to get a feel for the amount of effort that triggers tire slip. Try stopping with your fronts only, your rears only, and then a combination of both: that way, you’ll get a sense of how hard you can apply the brakes in a panic stopping situation. Once you become familiar with your bike’s brakes, the sensations of weight transfer will start to feel more apparent. Stopping hard enough on the fronts might even lift the rear wheel up, and using the rear brakes hard enough will cause a skid. You’ll also find that you can get away with applying more pressure at higher speeds. Learn those limits, and you’ll be much better prepared for the unexpected. The lean angle issue Tires are most effective when they’re upright, so you’ll need to keep that in mind when you start to lean your bike over. Let’s say that 100% of a tire’s available grip is available when it’s at a 90 degree angle; once that angle starts decreasing, its ability to maintain grip will also drop. Though grabbing the front brake might not break the tire free when it’s upright, the same effort could cause a skid when the tire is leaned over, and that loss of traction can instantly lead you to “tuck” the tire under, triggering a wipeout. Some braking effort can be applied while a motorcycle is turning, but the bike will be far less tolerant of brake input when increased lean angles are involved. Be hyper aware when you squeeze the brakes while you’re turning, and try to get most—if not all—of your braking before you turn. Be aware of road conditions Different surface conditions require different braking techniques, and you’ll want to use your front brakes gingerly when traction is iffy. Locking up the fronts can easily cause you to lose control of your bike, while locking up the rear is much more likely to be inconsequential. The possibility of sliding either end of your bike will be greatly dependent on the traction conditions beneath your tires. Enter areas where oil spills are likely with caution; these high-risk areas include intersections and parking lots. Drag your rear brake where you suspect slick surfaces, and you’ll have a backup plan in case you start to feel the front tires slide. It takes quick reflexes, so stay on your guard and remember that it’s much easier to recover from a rear wheel lockup than it is a front slide. Those rules get taken to another level when it comes to riding offroad, as dirt bike riding almost never involves the front brakes. If you plan on hitting trails, make it a habit to keep your hand off the front brake lever, or else you might have to get used to tasting dirt more often than you need to. How about linked brakes? Many scooters, touring bikes, cruisers, and even sport bikes are equipped with linked brakes, which are designed to actuate both front and rear brakes through a single lever. Some systems are only rear-to-front linked, while others work both ways, but the goal is the same both: remove some of the guesswork involved with choosing between front and rear brakes. While a majority of riders can’t produce stopping distances as short as those created by linked braking systems, this feature isn’t always popular among some performance-oriented enthusiasts.
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Post by scrap on Feb 29, 2012 23:03:33 GMT 10
Interesting article for the novices out there, especialy now that more rain has arrived. Ride safe people. How to use your motorcycle’s brakes
Sean Smith—Motorcycles offer the potential to experience acceleration that's impossible to perform in a car — but you have to know how to stop. Sean Smith at Hell For Leather explains the complications. — Ed. Braking seems pretty simple on the surface: squeeze the lever and the bike slows down. You might have heard the old adage, "Fast riders have slow hands." If you take an MSF course, they'll tell you not to grab the brake lever and instead squeeze it slowly, but they never really offer an explanation. I don't know about you, but I've always had a hard time doing just what I'm told without being told why. Maybe you keep crashing your bike because no one has taken the time to explain exactly why a gentle approach with the brake lever is a good plan. Or maybe you're an experienced rider who has figured out braking intuitively, but would like to know more about the nuts and bolts. Understanding what squeezing the lever does, how braking is affected by your suspension, and how to be smart about braking by being aware of your surroundings will make you a more skilled rider who can avoid accidents. When you squeeze the lever.
On a modern motorcycle squeezing the front brake lever pushes a hydraulic piston into a cylinder which forces fluid out and through a tube that's connected to a caliper. In terms of mechanical activity, it's a pretty simple process. There's no computers involved; the caliper's pistons are forced outward by the pressure of the fluid and they squish brake pads into a rotor that's connected to the front wheel. So, squeeze the lever, and the force you apply is proportional to the force applied to the front wheel. Just because the wheel stops, doesn't mean you and the bike stop too Did you catch that part? Squeeze the lever, and the force you apply is proportional to the force applied to the front wheel. Grab the lever hard and fast, and what is going to happen? Immediate force squeezes the brake pads into the disk that's attached to your front wheel. Endowed only with its usual amount of grip, the front wheel stops. Unfortunately, just because the wheel stops, doesn't mean you and the bike stop too. You and your bike have a lot of momentum and something trivial like a stopped front wheel dragging some rubber on the ground is not going to get in the way of physics. Squeeze the lever over a longer period of time (we're talking milliseconds here) and your suspension will help you stop without crashing. Now is also a good time to mention maintenance. If you can't remember the last time your brake fluid was changed, then you're almost certainly overdue. If you have a bike with rubber brake lines and it's more than three years old, you need new brake lines. Pony up the extra bucks for stainless braided lines - they're dirt cheap on eBay and the added feel and performance make them more than worth it. Riding with spongy brakes that only sorta work is a recipe for disaster.
What your suspension is doing
The front of the motorcycle is supported by springs which are in turn damped by hydraulics. If you didn't have springs, it'd be like riding your fixie - and there's nothing wrong with that as long as you're staying under 25mph. The added hydraulics keep your bike from riding like a pogo stick. The whole suspension package is usually hidden away inside forks, but weirder people have built bikes that use a shock and some sort of linkage. So what's this have to do with braking? Well, it turns out that braking and suspension are pretty much married and what happens to one has a significant effect on how the other works. Riding a motorcycle at its limit is incredibly hard. Say you're riding at 40mph and you need to slow to a stop. Use the lever and the brakes do their hydraulic thing to squeeze the rotor and slow the wheel. As you're decelerating it causes more weight than usual to be supported by the front wheel. As weight is transferred to the front, the suspension compresses and the tire flattens out, which in turn, gives you more tire contact area, allowing for more grip and, thus, more braking. Weight will only transfer once you've started braking and suspension can only compress so fast. If you apply a lot of pressure very fast (like you might if you realized that you were about to hit a CB400 directly in front of you) the weight of the motorcycle doesn't have time to transfer, squish the tire and compress the suspension. Squeezing the lever slowly will build braking force more gradually. That's not to say that it takes a lot time or even significantly longer than if you just grabbed the thing, but the difference of a few parts of a second is all it takes. What you should be doing
It helps to know when you should brake and where you want to stop. That's right, you should look where you're going. Look as far ahead as possible while still being able to keep tabs on what's going on directly in front of and next to you. Looking at a bumper that's eight feet in front of you in traffic will set you up for disaster (just ask the MSF instructor I watched plow into the back of a suburban on a brand new Multistrada S Touring last Saturday). If you know what's coming, you won't get caught out. It's as simple as using your eyes. But looking extremely far ahead is no good either; you can easily end up missing a tire swallowing pothole or a minivan trying to change lanes into you. In the long run, using the brakes is really a lot less about the technical skill needed to operate the lever and more about using your eyes and consciously picking where you want to go, when you want to slow down and when you'd like to stop. If you can do that then you'll probably never have a problem with grabbing at the lever and locking the front wheel.
Full size
That other brake
Now, I've been told that there is another brake on motorcycles that you operate with your right foot. If you're riding a sport or sporty standard bike and you need to stop in a hurry, the back brake is basically useless. Trying to stop in a hurry on a bike like this will put 99 percent or more weight onto the front wheel and almost any application of the rear brake will lock the tire. It won't make you crash, but it will zap valuable attention. You won't really stop any faster and having the rear tire moving instead will help keep the bike more stable. Now, that rear brake business only applies to sports bikes and the like. If you're on something a little more laid back, with a longer wheelbase and lower center of gravity, then the rear brake will help you stop significantly faster. If you've got a passenger it's the same deal. Your center of gravity will be moved much further back than usual and in addition to effortless wheelies, the rear brake becomes an important tool in slowing the bike. And finally
Riding a motorcycle at its limit is incredibly hard. To safely control a motorcycle that is constantly at the limit of traction you need both considerable skill and intense focus. It takes serious commitment to get it right, to perfect your body position, lines, timing, throttle control and braking takes years and nobody ever really gets it 100 percent right every time. Knowing how to stop in a hurry is a good thing to have in your back pocket, especially if you live in one of the 49 states that don't allow lane splitting. To recap the lesson: don't grab the front brake lever, slowly squeeze it, working up to the amount of braking pressure you need to stop. You'll feel the suspension compress and the tire gain more grip as you do. You need that added grip to stop safely and quickly. You can practice in an empty parking lot. Being able to employ your motorcycle's full braking ability is an essential riding skill. Work at it until you can consistently apply full braking pressure without having to think about it.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2012 17:52:54 GMT 10
Thanks scrap great articles, now to just get on the bike and practice eh....
Great idea intherough, I think I might even try the video thing, be interesting
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Post by intherough on Mar 1, 2012 18:49:47 GMT 10
If you do tape it, make sure you dub in some Benny Hill music and post it up
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2012 18:56:38 GMT 10
Hahahahahaha
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2012 15:52:18 GMT 10
Well I you tubed intherough, and found an interesting set of instructional videos by a site called motorcycleassistant.com/They're american so ya gotta change from mph to kph, but other than that I found them pretty good, the guy is to the point, I even understood countersteering for the first time when he explained it. Good Stuff
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Post by Mac on Mar 2, 2012 23:06:16 GMT 10
Annastasia, the first thing I heard from theseeler when I got my Shadow is that riding a cruiser, was like throwing an armchair around the corner. Get used to the bulk, be smooth with acceleration & braking, & use your gears to slow down (I'm surprised no one has mentioned that till now) I use my gears all the time they can slow the bike down real quick if you need to. Riding in a lower gear when riding the mountain roads is great, gives you terrific control, I almost never touch my brakes as I go over the mountain roads I use the appropriate gear to set me up for the right speed weather the corners are 60kph or 20kph. I hope this helps
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2012 23:15:35 GMT 10
Thanks for the advice John, yeah I already got the fact that it's like an armchair thingy, I do try to be smooth with the acceleration and braking, and I'm kinda getting the hang of it. More practice needed ... have I moaned about the torrential rain recently ...
I like what you said about the gears and I guess I do that to an extent, I'll kick it back a gear when it's slowing down, I use my brakes too, kinda like I used to in a manual car. Is that what ya meant?
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Post by Mac on Mar 6, 2012 18:11:06 GMT 10
Annastasia, exactly, just like manual gears in a car. So many times I've come down mountain roads, following cars who are in to higher a gear, so they ride their brakes all the way down. Well some riders do the same thing, get in an appropriate gear & you'll save your brake pads & have a much smoother & safer ride.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2012 20:20:48 GMT 10
Thanks Mac (we really need a thanks button on this forum:P)
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Post by scrap on Mar 6, 2012 21:03:15 GMT 10
Her ya go Annastasia:-
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2012 21:13:45 GMT 10
Scrap
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